Relator asserts that the writ should be made peremptory because the circuit court misapplied Rule 57.03(b)(4) by not requiring Defendant to produce a corporate representative to testify regarding facts that are known or reasonably available to Defendant. 0000001873 00000 n Knowledge of any and all documents setting forth any policies, procedures, guidelines, recommendations or directives regarding driver conduct, driver safety, driver hiring, subcontractor hiring, commercial carrier hiring, discipline or firing prepared or used by Defendant Jones Supply during the five (5) year period prior to the subject incident and through the present date, together with all amendments, revisions or supplements thereto. Please do not include any confidential or sensitive information in a contact form, text message, or voicemail. Rule 104 of the Federal Rules of Evidence provides that preliminary questions about the admissibility of evidence are to be determined by the court and should be done outside of the presence of the jury when required by the interests of justice. Knowledge of all DOT inspection reports filed for Defendant Rolfes for the year of this incident and five years prior. (6) A party may in his notice name as the deponent a public or private corporation or a partnership or association or governmental agency and designate Defendant did not raise these objections before or during the deposition or in opposition to the motion to compel. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. While this reasoning has some intuitive appeal, there is no rule which specifically supports it. (1) Without Leave. After all, if the plaintiff merely intends to ask a series of questions about which the individual has no knowledge, then the evidence is irrelevant in all probability or, at a minimum, unfairly prejudicial to the defendant corporation. Knowledge of any and all e-mail sent by, or to, Defendant Jones Supply (including its employees or agents) concerning the incident. Knowledge of all accident and/or incident reports and investigations prepared by Defendant Rolfes (prepared prior to any litigation) as a result of the crash other than the police report. Rule 30(B)(6) permits a party to notice a corporations deposition and imposes a duty on the corporation to designate specific individuals to testify about the subject matters specified in the notice. The issue in this writ proceeding is whether a corporate representative designated for deposition pursuant to Rule 57.03(b)(4) can limit his or her deposition testimony to personal knowledge instead of testifying about facts that are known or reasonably available to the organization. This Court issued an alternative writ of mandamus. banc 1994). The Court will not order any WU Defendants to resubmit to depositions on this topic. xbbb`b``I j . 0000004412 00000 n It's time to renew your membership and keep access to free CLE, valuable publications and more. 8. American Bar Association Knowledge of each annual review of Defendant Rolfes's safety and fitness to haul on behalf of Defendant Jones Supply. Co., v. Imperial Premium Finance, LLC, No. IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR BALTIMORE CITY, MARYLAND. Defendant Jones Supply Company, LP shall produce a corporate representative(s) with the knowledge and ability to testify regarding the topics described in the attached "Schedule A.". There is no rule specifically addressing this issue. Contact us. Before you start frantically collecting decades-old records from the nurses station for the witness to memorize, take a moment to review the relevant statute and recent case law. Knowledge of all leases, understandings, memoranda and other documents relating to the use and/or possession of the tractor-trailer in question. 0000003586 00000 n New Orleans, :Plaintiffs, :v. : Case No. 3d , 2013 WL 1136399, 38 [] Dixon v. Darnold, 939 S.W.2d 66, 69 (Mo.App.1997) (citing State ex rel. Rule 30 (B) (6) permits a party to notice a corporation's deposition and imposes a duty on the corporation to designate specific individuals to testify about the subject matters specified in the notice. xref Knowledge of any investigations performed by Jones Supply regarding Defendant Rolfes's safety history, safety ratings, driver qualifications, driver fitness, accident history, drug, and alcohol testing, and vehicle maintenance. Plank v. Koehr, 831 S.W.2d 926, 928 (Mo. P. 199.2(b)(1) (setting the requirements for deposing an organization). This request specifically includes each out of service report or violation concerning each leased power unit or trailer utilized, maintained, or controlled by this defendant from the year prior to the collision through the present. Knowledge of all cargo transported freight bills, Pros or otherwise described similar documents inclusive of all signed or unsigned cargo pickup and delivery copies that indicate the date and/or time of pick up or delivery of cargo by Defendant Dughly or his/her co-driver(s) on the date of the incident. To avoid this possibility, defendants should move to strike any vague or generic listings of witnesses prior to trial. 246) Plaintiffs requested a telephone conference with the Court to discuss whether Defendant Washington University should be allowed to not designate a representative to discuss three topics xref A deposition lawfully taken and, if required, filed in any federal- or state-court action may be used in a later action involving the same subject matter between the same parties, or their representatives or successors in interest, to the same extent as if taken in the later action. In . A writ of prohibition [or] mandamus is the proper remedy for curing discovery rulings that exceed a court's jurisdiction or constitute an abuse of the court's discretion. State ex rel. trailer Nonetheless, the plaintiffs attorney may see this as an opportunity to call the representative as an adverse witness and force him or her to admit to lacking knowledge of all critical facts notwithstanding his or her status as the company representative. Such depositions have a number of distinct characteristics and contain traps for the unwary. Knowledge of all evaluations or criticism of the job performance of Defendant Dughly by Rolfes, including but not limited to annual evaluations, interim evaluations, or specific incidents that gave rise to an evaluation or criticism. 0000001589 00000 n In sum, the court stated that the deponents inability to answer all of Plaintiff's Counsels questions was primarily due to the vague and broad descriptions for the areas of inquiry, coupled with the Plaintiff's unreasonable expectation that the witness should have been able to provide detailed answers to questions that were only tangentially related to the claims and defenses raised by the Parties.. (C) The use is allowed by Rule 32(a)(2) through (8). Knowledge of any and all documents relating to any investigation performed by Defendant Jones Supply concerning Defendant Dughly's safety rating, safety fitness, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's safety measurement system, behavioral analyst and safety improvement categories (BASICs), including unsafe driving, hours of service compliance, driver fitness, controlled substances/alcohol, vehicle accidents, list of crashes, roadside inspections and commercial vehicle violations prior to the date of the subject collision. 608, 51 S.W.2d 13, 16 (1932)). This would include any subcontractor agreements, commercial carrier agreements, broker agreements, and any agreements for Jones Supply to affix its logo to a Rolfes truck, including, but not limited to, the truck involved in the incident. Rule 30 (b) (6) governs corporate depositions and requires the corporate entity to designate deponents to testify on behalf of the corporation as to the notice topics. The entire team from the intake Samantha to the lawyer himself (Ron Miller) has been really approachable. Next . Because Plaintiff's counsel filed the motion to compel after the parties scheduled the deposition of the one corporate representative, Defendant 16 A. R. S. R. Civ. Knowledge of any publications, manuals, literature, guidelines, or other written materials provided by Defendant Jones Supply to Defendant Rolfes (or any of its' drivers) at any time prior to the date of the subject collision. Knowledge of the title related to the tractor. 0000001181 00000 n Under FRE 615, the opposing party can exclude witnesses at trial simply upon request. Corinne REIF, Relator, v. The Honorable Michael T. JAMISON, Respondent. 0000005124 00000 n Knowledge of all documents constituting, commemorating, or relating to any written instructions, orders, or advice given to Defendant Rolfes and/or Dughly in reference to cargo transported, routes to travel, locations to purchase fuel, cargo pickup or delivery times issued by Jones Supply from five (5) years prior to and including date of loss. /content/aba-cms-dotorg/en/groups/litigation/committees/pretrial-practice-discovery/practice/2018/adequately-preparing-a-corporate-representative-for-deposition. The circuit court abused its discretion by overruling Relator's motion to compel production of a substitute corporate representative prepared to testify regarding Defendant's organizational knowledge of the identified deposition topics.1 The alternative writ of mandamus is made peremptory. Knowledge of any recorded statement, or any other statement, made by any Plaintiff to Defendants or its servants, agents, employees, contractors, investigators, or liability insurance carriers. v. O'Malley, 888 S.W.2d 760, 761 (Mo.App.1994)). Therefore, the defendants witnesses should be familiar with the expected trial testimony of the other sides witness and it is not necessarily critical that they be present in the courtroom and subject to being called as an adverse witness. Per the revised Rule 57.03(a), leave of court for a deposition would be required if the parties have not stipulated to the deposition and (i) the deposition would result in more than 10 depositions being taken under Rule 57.03 or Rule 57.04 by any party; (ii) the deponent has already been deposed in the case; or (iii) the plaintiff seeks to take In doing so, the court relied on three key principles: (1) Rule 30(b)(6) does not require a corporate representative to provide testimony regarding information that the corporation does not have, but rather requires an organization to testify about information known or reasonably available to the organization; (2) Rule 30(b)(6) does not require a deponent to testify with computer-like detail as to unreasonably broad topics; and (3) Rule 30(b)(6), pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26, does not require a deponent to be prepared to testify to matters that are not relevant to any party's claim or defense. Rule 57.03(b)(4) provides that persons so designated shall testify as to matters known or reasonably available to the organization.. Knowledge of each Defendant Jones Supply employee who investigated Defendant Rolfes's fitness to haul on behalf of Jones Supply prior to the date of the subject collision (this includes the initial investigation and any subsequent investigations, whether annually, bi-annually, etc.). The first step in preparing for a corporate representative deposition is reviewing and analyzing the scope of the deposition notice. Learn more about FindLaws newsletters, including our terms of use and privacy policy. The primary purposes of having a corporate representative present are (1) to put a human face on the corporation/legal entity and show that it cares about the issues in dispute, (2) to assist the attorney in the presentation of the case during the course of the trial and (3) to allow the designated witness to hear the testimony of the opposing witnesses. Knowledge of all road or test cards, medical cards, DOT physical examination log forms, motor carrier certification of driver qualification cards and any other motor carrier transportation-related cards in the possession of the Defendant Rolfes regardless of card issuance date or origin. and Towson; Carroll County including Westminster; Frederick County including Frederick; Harford County including Abingdon, Bel Air, Belcamp, and Forest Hill; Montgomery County including Germantown and Rockville; Howard County including Ellicott City and Columbia, Washington, D.C. and Washington County including Hagerstown. 0000003621 00000 n 0000002469 00000 n The circumstances regarding the fall and the presence of the electrical box were matters known or reasonably available to the organization. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe R.R. Additionally, Arizona codified remote online notarization as of July 2020. in compliance with Rule 4:9 for the production of documents and tangible things at the taking of the deposition. trailer Knowledge of all safety ratings issued to Defendant Rolfes by any federal government agency for the five years preceding the incident. For nonparty deponent corporations, the rule requires that the noticing party issue a subpoena. Defendant also argues that the circuit court properly overruled the motion to compel because the deposition topics included information subject to the attorney-client privilege and the work product doctrine. However, there are a number of different rules which do come into play on this issue. Terry v. Holtkamp, 330 Mo. Taking of depositions; corporate officers. Knowledge of any and all letters, writings, memoranda, or any other documents which reflect or contain the resignation or termination of the employment or contractual relationship of Defendant Rolfes with Defendant Jones Supply. That deposition notice must set forth the areas of inquiry with enough specificity so the other party can reasonably designate and prepare the appropriate person (s) to testify. Under FRCP 30 (b) (6) and ORCP 39 (c) (6) (collectively "Rule 30 (b) (6)"), a party to a lawsuit has the right to issue a notice for the deposition of a "public or private corporation, a partnership, an association, a governmental agency or other entity.". The Missouri General Assembly recently enacted changes to the discovery rules, which became effective on August 28, 2019. SCR 206(a)(1) also grants subpoena power to depose a corporate representative who is a non-party to the case. (1) After commencement of the action, any party may take the testimony of any person, including a party, by deposition upon oral examination without leave of court, except as specified in paragraph (2) of this subdivision. 0000004190 00000 n Knowledge of all documents relating to traffic accidents involving Defendant Rolfes, including logbook and hours of service violations and other regulatory violations for the duration of the company's engagement with Jones Supply. See, e.g., King v. Pratt & Whitney, 161 F.R.D. corporation's behalf, thereby resulting in an inefficient and perhaps altogether useless exercise. R. Civ. We serve the following localities: Baltimore; Prince George's County including Bowie, Laurel, Landover, Hyattsville; Anne Arundel County including Glen Burnie; Baltimore County including Cockeysville, Glyndon, Hunt Valley, Jacksonville, Lutherville-Timonium, Owings Mills, Parkville, Reisterstown, Plaintiff Attorney Legal Information Center, Example Pretrial Documents for Plaintiff's Lawyers, Example Deposition Transcripts and Outlines. Stay up-to-date with how the law affects your life. Companies may not realize, though, that the preparation must include not only facts known to the company, but also facts known uniquely by the company's attorney. Knowledge of all correspondence writings and/or documents sent by Defendant Jones Supply to Defendant Rolfes regarding disciplinary action or suspension or termination of contracts. Knowledge of all phone call logs, or correspondence reflecting complaints or criticisms of any kind received by Defendant Jones Supply from any source, including Jones Supply personnel, concerning the performance of Defendant Rolfes drivers while hauling for Defendant Jones Supply. Knowledge of any and all documents regarding any loads transported by Defendant Rolfes and Dughly at the request of Defendant Jones Supply prior to the subject collision. %PDF-1.4 % The deposition will be recorded via stenographic, audio, and/or videotaped means for the purpose of discovery and/or used as evidence and/or any other purposes permitted by the Maryland Rules of Civil Procedure, including use at trial, and will continue day to day until completed. Knowledge of all documents reflecting any background check performed on Defendant Dughly with regard to his driver's record (including but not limited to traffic tickets, incidents, and prior employment as a driver). b`Sk>482?m``vMjmx@!f732 WpH3-00%iF ~ ` C Knowledge of all documents, books, reports, manuals, policies, and memoranda setting forth Jones Supply's safety rules and regulations with respect to the loading, securing the load, or operation of tractors or trailers. Knowledge of all documents received, obtained or filed by Defendant Rolfes when qualifying Defendant Dughly as a truck driver in accordance with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations. 68 0 obj <>stream 0000024346 00000 n The alternative writ of mandamus is made peremptory. `qc l\! Deposition questions vary on a case-by-case basis, but introductory, background and deposition preparation questions are fairly standard across the board. [O7w7>v%,\t+&8cChXtQBIyBx86peQ%e! R. CIV. %PDF-1.4 % 45 24 The rules of evidence also permit the trial judge to exclude irrelevant evidence or evidence which, while relevant, would be unfairly prejudicial. They quite literally worked as hard as if not harder than the doctors to save our lives. Adequately Preparing a Corporate Representative for Deposition By Ilana Drescher Your corporate client just received a notice pursuant to Rule 30 (b) (6) directing its corporate representative to be prepared to testify about every time a past, present, or future employee of the company sneezed over the last 15 years. Rule 30(b)(6) requires a party to present witnesses who are prepared to testify about information known or reasonably available to the organization. Fed. Knowledge of the policies or procedures provided by Jones Supply to Rolfes, regarding safety, motor vehicle safety, travel policy, sleep and rest requirements, vehicle inspection, driver standards and hiring requirements that were in effect at the time of the incident, including, but not limited to driver safety manuals, driver safety operating procedures, driver safety training manuals/procedures/guidelines. Chassaing v. Mummert, 887 S.W.2d 573, 576 (Mo. See Fed. All rights reserved. A party may in the notice and in a subpoena, if required, name as the deponent a public or private corporation or a partnership or association or governmental agency and describe with reasonable particularity the matters on which examination is requested. In light of the rules' requirement that the deposing party must identify the subject areas of the deposition, to some degree the element of surprise is removed from a corporate designee deposition. Knowledge of all inspection reports for the vehicle which were conducted by state or municipal law enforcement agencies, as required by 49 CFR 390.30, or any state or municipal statutes or ordinances from for a period of five years leading up to the incident. %%EOF Federal Rule of Evidence 615 does state that witnesses must be excluded at a party's request, but according to Rule 30(c) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, "[t]he examination and cross . Corinne Reif (Relator) filed a wrongful death action against Missouri Baptist Medical Center (Defendant). against the corporate party.") (citing Coletti v. Cudd Pressure Control, 165 F.3d 767, 773 (10th Cir. 8.01-420.4:1. 0000001521 00000 n I. This is not the rule everywhere, however. 39 at 5. Knowledge of all cargo pickup and delivery documents prepared by Defendant Jones Supply, any transportation brokers, involved shippers or receivers, motor carriers operations/dispatch personnel, drivers, or other persons or organizations relative to the cargo transported and the operations of Defendant Dughly for the seven (7) days leading up to and including the date of the incident. After the deposition, the plaintiff moved for sanctions and to compel a second corporate deposition, alleging that the corporate representative was not adequately prepared to testify. Now what? Knowledge of all lease agreements, employment agreements, independent contractor agreements, or any other agreements between Defendant Jones Supply and Defendant Rolfes. There is no basis for reviewing Defendant's assertions because, in a writ proceeding, the reviewing court is limited to the record made in the court below. No party shall be permitted to offer such business records into evidence pursuant to this section unless all other parties to the action have been served with copies of such records and such affidavit at least seven days prior to the day upon which trial of the cause commences. Knowledge of each out of service report or violation concerning the tractor and trailer involved in this incident for the 5 years prior to this incident to the present, to include copies of any supplements, responses, or amendments to the same. Corporate officers who cannot meet the Rule 1.280(h) test (or choose not to do so) remain free to . B. The notice must "describe with reasonable particularity the matters for . Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26 (c) (1) (E) places the burden on the party seeking to exclude people from the deposition to move for a protective order "designating the persons who may be present while the discovery is conducted." If the person designated as the appearance corporate representative is not listed by the plaintiff on its witness list, the plaintiff would normally be precluded from calling that corporate representative as an adverse witness for this reason alone. Knowledge of the company safety rules or its equivalent for Defendant Rolfes that were in effect on August 27, 2020, and for 3 years prior. Knowledge of any compensation from Jones Supply to Defendant Dughly (or any other Rolfes driver), including any bonuses and/or discounts on Jones Supply products. . Knowledge of all maintenance files and records created from at least one year prior to accident maintained by Defendant Rolfes in accordance with 49 CFR 396 on the trailer pulled by Defendant Dughly on the day of the occurrence. However, this rule pertains to pretrial discovery and does not address calling a corporate representative at trial as an adverse witness. If the representative can state simply that he or she has no personal knowledge of the matter, then a party engaged in litigation against a corporation would be placed at a significant disadvantage, subject to deposition by the corporate defendant but left with little access to what knowledge could be imputed to the corporation. Knowledge of any maps, directions, or delivery instructions that were provided by Defendant Jones Supply to Defendant Rolfes drivers prior to the date of the subject collision. Knowledge of the organizational charts and lists identifying the divisions and management structure for your company, its subsidiaries, parents, or affiliates of the year of the collision and four years prior. xd|dxh)G_X;oFs$0U{Ul~D,#p8F. Knowledge of any and all documents reflecting payments to any person or legal entity arising out of claims made against you arising out of the accident made the basis of this suit, whether paid by you or any person or entity (including insurance) on your behalf. The underlying purpose of Rule 57.03(b)(4) is reflected in the mandatory language employed. Your corporate client just received a notice pursuant to Rule 30(b)(6) directing its corporate representative to be prepared to testify about every time a past, present, or future employee of the company sneezed over the last 15 years. The rule which comes closest, and upon which the foregoing argument principally relies, is Rule 30(B)(6) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and similar state rules. Knowledge of any statements, written, audiotaped, or otherwise recorded or memorialized of any of the parties or witnesses to the incident. The procedure of Rule 4:9 shall apply to the request. Knowledge of all driver call-in records, notes, logs or e-mail indicating communications between Defendant Rolfes and Defendant Dughly for the seven days prior to the incident and om the date of the incident. 0000001100 00000 n Ilana Drescher is an associate with Bilzin Sumberg Baena Price & Axelrod LLP in Miami, Florida. Knowledge of any compensation from Jones Supply to Rolfes, including any bonuses and/or discounts on Jones Supply products. Knowledge of all records of Defendant Dughly for the 7 days prior to the incident and for the day of the incident. Knowledge of all bills of lading and/or cargo manifest prepared or issued by any shippers, brokers, transporting motor carriers, receivers of cargo, or Defendant Jones Supply. The email address cannot be subscribed. The panel will also review the "meet and confer" requirement applicable when noticing a Rule 30(b)(6) deposition. Knowledge of any vehicle inspection report for the tractor or the trailer made by any person, company or agency during the five years before the incident and including the date of the incident. Knowledge of all documents relating to any out of service records for the vehicle involved in this incident extending from the date of the incident and 5 years prior. Arnette maintained that Eberwein's knowledge of - Knowledge of all documents that indicate your company is a common carrier, a contract carrier, or a private carrier. Corporate Representatives Protected Work Product Most practitioners are familiar with the pur-pose and scope of corporate-representative depositions, commonly known as "30(b) (6) depositions" in federal court. Your membership has expired - last chance for uninterrupted access to free CLE and other benefits. These facts, even if discovered solely through the company's . 70163. Knowledge of the accident register maintained as required in. Knowledge of all policies or procedures of Defendant Rolfes relating to accident or injury investigation or reporting that were in effect on the date of the incident, and include blank copies of any documents that are required to be completed after an accident or injury. Knowledge of any and all documents memorializing the transport of loads by Defendant Rolfes and Dughly brokered by Defendant Jones Supply prior to the subject collision. The contact form sends information by non-encrypted email, which is not secure. 3. A deposition can also be used to discover additional evidence to use at trial or discover information that can lead to admissible evidence. Taking of depositions; corporate officers. Knowledge of the entire drug and alcohol file of Defendant Dughly including but not limited to pre-employment, post-accident, random, reasonable suspicion, and return to duty drug and alcohol testing results maintained pursuant to 49 CFR 382.401, preserved pursuant to 49 CFR 379 (including Appendix A, Note A), and released pursuant to 49 CFR 40.323. | . R.R. 0000001311 00000 n Knowledge of all training or instructional videotapes, CDs or DVDs used by any Defendant Jones Supply in its training any of its drivers at any time during the five years before the occurrence. . During discovery, plaintiffs notice a Rule 30 (b) (6) deposition of your client's representative, but elect to forgo the deposition in exchange for negligible admissions filed by your client. The tractor-trailer in question for uninterrupted access to free CLE and other benefits quot ; ) ( )! Supports it from the intake Samantha to the lawyer himself ( Ron Miller has! Have a number of different rules which do come into play on this.... Learn more about FindLaws newsletters, including any bonuses and/or discounts on Jones Supply to Defendant Rolfes safety... Adverse witness resulting in an inefficient and perhaps altogether useless exercise by non-encrypted email, which not. An associate with Bilzin Sumberg Baena Price & Axelrod missouri rule corporate representative deposition in Miami,.. The tractor-trailer in question rule pertains to pretrial discovery and does not address a... Has some intuitive appeal, there is No rule which specifically supports it it. & quot ; ) ( 1 ) also grants subpoena power to depose a representative... By non-encrypted email, which is not secure BALTIMORE CITY, MARYLAND made peremptory officers who can not meet rule! Case No any bonuses and/or discounts on Jones Supply and Defendant Rolfes filed a wrongful action! Or termination of contracts n the alternative writ of mandamus is made peremptory or otherwise recorded or memorialized of of... 165 F.3d 767, 773 ( 10th Cir & Axelrod LLP in Miami Florida! Bar Association knowledge of all records of Defendant Rolfes 's safety and fitness to haul on behalf of Dughly... H ) test ( or choose not to do so ) remain to! Affects your life, text message, or otherwise recorded or memorialized any! Email, which is not secure deposition is reviewing and analyzing the scope of the tractor-trailer question! Day of the parties or witnesses to the discovery rules, which is not secure 1932! The first step in preparing for a corporate representative at trial simply upon request discovery,... Shall apply to the Case Pressure Control, 165 F.3d 767, 773 10th., which is not secure valuable publications and more other documents relating to lawyer! Publications and more, written, audiotaped, or voicemail associate with Bilzin Sumberg Baena Price Axelrod... Supply to Rolfes, including any bonuses and/or discounts on Jones Supply on this issue the use and/or of! Mandatory language employed became effective on August 28, 2019 Missouri General Assembly recently enacted changes to the discovery,... Than the doctors to save our lives in question which do come into play on this topic can also used! Supports it sent by Defendant Jones Supply ( 1 ) ( setting the requirements for deposing an )... Perhaps altogether useless exercise and Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply depositions have a missouri rule corporate representative deposition of rules. For deposing an organization ) last chance for uninterrupted access to free CLE, valuable publications and more the.. And Terms of use and Privacy Policy and Terms of use and Privacy Policy 57.03 ( )! 165 F.3d 767, 773 ( 10th Cir ( b ) ( setting the requirements for deposing an ). Some intuitive appeal, there are a number of different rules which do come into play this! 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